DREAMS OPEN UP THE SOUL

An interview with the guest lecturer Dr.G.Dreifuss, at the Congress of AIPA (Association of Italian Analytical Psychologists), Naples, November 2000. (Fabricio Coscia, Il Matino, Napoli, November 2)

Psychoanalysis is a discipline pushed to the fringe in a wide discussion on diffusion of depressions on one hand and psychopharmacology on the other hand. The lecture deals among others of the conflict in the Middle East, using symbols as a key for a deeper understanding.

There is an old story about the split between Freud and Jung as well as the respective schools. Coming across a passer by, a Freudian would be inclined to ask him: from where do you come? A Jungian would ask him: where are you going? But if you let the same passer-by direct his question to the psychoanalysts (Freudians, Adlerians, Jungians, Kleininans, Lacanians and so forth) concerning the past and the future of psychoanalysis there would be no doubt about the origin of psychoanalysis, whereas there would be many questions regarding its future. (Exactly hundred years after the publication of the interpretation of dreams by Freud),

There will be those who are willing to swear that the discipline as such shows its old age. There are others who blame it as being rather dogmatic and as failing, being insufficient in dealing with a world continuously and rapidly in change. There are still those who consider it lacking of a scientific base and missing proved results.

With such and other questions the forth-national congress of AIPA with the title “Horizons of the Self” will deal.

It is really true as many super-critical professionals claim, that psychoanalysis does not seem to function as well as it should. For George Steiner, psychoanalysis, like Christianity and Marxism, is heretical to the base of Judaism. Is psychoanalysis really to be crushed under the burden of “The imperialism of psychopharmacology”?

Gustav Dreifuss, ex-president of the Israeli Association of Analytical Psychology, one of the elders of Jungian therapy, does not seem to have any doubts. According to him, analytical psychology-that Dr.Dreifuss vigorously tends to distinguish from Freudian Analysis-will always be ready to renew itself, as does the bird Phoenix. And this will be, despite the bells of death that ring.

According to Dr.Dreifuss, it is not possible to reach the depth of the human soul by means of science. It is wrong to believe that the soul, the psyche, can be evaluated scientifically like any other discipline. The soul can never be grasped by way of science only.

Question: We live in a society where depression becomes more and more dominant. The development of neuropsychiatry and the spread of psychopharmacology seem to become even more significant. How should the psychoanalyst of today avoid being pushed to a corner? What sort of a role should he assume?

Answer: Materialism characterizes our epoch. Mammon has replaced God, so it seems, for many, and the rush for power dominates. Depression as a result of this, is widely spread. People cannot cope with reality any more and tend to escape it, finding refuge in drugs, alcohol or fanaticism.

Jungian psychology has a unique approach to the irrational and as such could offer a valid contribution to the problem. The confidence attributed to psychopharmacology derives from the illusion that on can cure the soul by synthetic means. The dreams of patients open a gate to the soul and to something one might call “the beyond” and that helps one to develop a symbolic approach to a different world, namely that of the unconscious.

Question: Elisabeth Roudinesco, in her recent book “Pourquoi la psychoanalysis?” has defined psychoanalysis as the “philosophy of freedom”. Do you agree?

Answer: Yes, for the individual it could signify a “philosophy of freedom”. But I am not sure if it could be applied to people in general. If I can help the individual to change, then there is more awareness. This does not mean that I can change the world at large. Changing the world of the individual may change the world a tiny little bit.

Question: How ever, there will be those who like Luciano Mecacci in a book published by him in Italy under the title “the case of Marlyn M., has condemned psychoanalysis (and its theories) of having published her story, disregarding their own shortcomings.

Answer: It is difficult to generalize such cases. One would rather have to examine each case separately. First, one has to find out who was the therapist, and who the patient, and how was their relationship. Also a physician can be at fault, which does necessarily mean that medicine as a science has failed.

Question: The AIPA-conference carries the name “horizons of the Self”. The Jungian concept of the Self has been subject to many interpretations, at times even contradictions. What is your definition of the concept?

Answer: It is the sensation of becoming one with oneself. Life is marked by many conflicts. If you manage to overcome, then a sensation of harmony with yourself will follow. The Self is always larger than the ego.

Question: Could one not simply regard it as a mystical experience?

Answer: First of all, mind you, the term “mystical” is not a negative one. What is however interesting with regard to Jung, is, that in his theory one might come across mysticism as a theme, but in therapy he worked also on the here and now. He was concerned with the concrete identity of the patient at a given time and he avoided abstract theory. Therefore those who define Jung as a mystic have not really understood him.

Question: In the story of your life you refer to a dream of yours that occurred in the third decade of your life. In this dream you acquire a piece of land in Israel and you bargain about the high price. The price seemed to be rather high. This dream, among others, influenced you to leave Zurich and to immigrate in Haifa. How do you interpret this dream especially with regard to the recent events taking place in Jerusalem?

Answer: The significance of the high costs in the dream hints at a situation in which I would have to sacrifice something of high value. I dreamt this dream in the fifties, a time very different to that in which we live now. It was a time when it seemed just, to hand over to the Jewish people a piece of the biblical land , to give them a territory, a homeland, a “mother” that would protect them from persecutions and discriminations from which they had suffered for 2000 years. As for me, the dream also signified a reaction to the Holocaust, a challenge to wake up and take destiny in my own hands. The earth-mother or mother earth is psychologically a manifestation of a spiritual process that urges the Jewish people to confront the archetype of the mother liberating them from the archetype of the father under whose dominance they had lived for centuries. But to return to our time, I see the obstacles that threaten to put an end to the peace process. I don’t think that the only reason for the conflict is a political one. The deeper origin of it, has to do with the different religions. I think of the Wailing Wall, of the Via Dolorosa and of the Mosques. A climate so tense can easily generate fanaticism. Then fanatics are willing to die and to kill in the name of God. God dwells within our soul. But how can one get the fanatics of all religious denominations, to realize that to be really religious one has to be tolerant and love one’s neighbor? Psychologically “the other”, who adheres to a different religion, represents one’s doubt, namely, that there is not only one truth. Therefore one has to kill the other.

Question: Can one discern in the conflict between Jews and Palestinians a Biblical archetype, like for example Cain and Abel?

Answer: Yes, it is the archetype of the hostile brothers, like Cain and Abel or Jacob and Esau. The meeting and reconciliation between Jacob and Esau takes place after many years of separation, which means that the solution of the conflict between Israelis and Palestinians is a slow process.

Question: Could we see in this an invitation for hope?

Answer: Without doubt. But much time and much patience is needed.

Translated from Italian by Shalva Koopmans

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